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仅做 整合 / 美化 处理
Chris Anderson: Mike. welcome.
[AI] 克里斯·安德森：迈克。欢迎
It's good to see you. I'm excited for this conversation.
[AI] 很高兴见到你。我为这次谈话感到兴奋。
Michael Levin: Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here.
[AI] 迈克尔·莱文：非常感谢。我很高兴来到这里。
CA: So. most of us have this mental model in biology
[AI] CA:那么。我们大多数人在生物学上都有这种思维模式
that DNA is a property of every living thing.
[AI] DNA是所有生物的属性。
that it is kind of the software that builds the hardware of our body.
[AI] 这是一种构建我们身体硬件的软件。
That's how a lot of us think about this.
[AI] 这就是我们很多人的想法。
That model leaves too many deep mysteries.
[AI] 这种模式留下了太多的神秘。
Can you share with us some of those mysteries
[AI] 你能和我们分享一些神秘的事情吗
and also what tadpoles have to do with it?
[AI] 还有蝌蚪和它有什么关系？
ML: Sure. Yeah.
[AI] 当然。是 啊
I'd like to give you another perspective on this problem.
[AI] 我想就这个问题给你们另一个观点。
One of the things that DNA does is specify the hardware of each cell.
[AI] DNA所做的事情之一就是指定每个细胞的硬件。
So the DNA tells every cell what proteins it's supposed to have.
[AI] 所以DNA告诉每个细胞它应该有什么蛋白质。
And so when you have tadpoles. for example.
[AI] 所以当你有蝌蚪的时候。例如
you see the kind of thing
[AI] 你看到了吗
that most people think is sort of a progressive unrolling of the genome.
[AI] 大多数人认为这是一种基因组的逐步展开。
Specific genes turn on and off.
[AI] 特定的基因开启和关闭。
and a tadpole. as it becomes a frog.
[AI] 还有一只蝌蚪。当它变成一只青蛙。
has to rearrange its face.
[AI] 必须重新排列它的脸。
So the eyes. the nostrils. the jaws -- everything has to move.
[AI] 所以眼睛。鼻孔。下巴——一切都得动。
And one way to think about it used to be that. well.
[AI] 过去有一种想法是这样的。好
you have a sort of hardwired set of movements
[AI] 你有一套固定的动作
where all of these things move around and then you get your frog.
[AI] 所有这些东西移动，然后你得到你的青蛙。
But actually. a few years ago. we found a pretty amazing phenomenon.
[AI] 但事实上。几年前。我们发现了一个非常惊人的现象。
which is that if you make so-called "Picasso frogs" --
[AI] 如果你制作所谓的“毕加索青蛙”--
these are tadpoles where the jaws might be off to the side.
[AI] 这些是蝌蚪，它们的下颚可能偏侧。
the eyes are up here. the nostrils are moved.
[AI] 眼睛在上面。鼻孔被移动。
so everything is shifted --
[AI] 所以一切都改变了--
these tadpoles make largely normal frog faces.
[AI] 这些蝌蚪在很大程度上是正常的青蛙脸。
Now. this is amazing.
[AI] 现在这太神奇了。
because all of the organs start off in abnormal positions.
[AI] 因为所有的器官都是以不正常的姿势开始的。
and yet they still end up making a pretty good frog face.
[AI] 但他们最终还是做出了一张很好的青蛙脸。
And so what it turns out is that this system.
[AI] 结果是这个系统。
like many living systems.
[AI] 就像许多生命系统一样。
is not a hardwired set of movements.
[AI] 不是一套固定的动作。
but actually works to reduce the error between what's going on now
[AI] 但实际上可以减少现在发生的事情之间的误差
and what it knows is a correct frog face configuration.
[AI] 它知道的是正确的青蛙脸结构。
This kind of decision-making
[AI] 这种决策
that involves flexible responses to new circumstances.
[AI] 这涉及对新情况的灵活反应。
in other contexts. we would call this intelligence.
[AI] 在其他情况下。我们称之为情报。
And so what we need to understand now is not only the mechanisms
[AI] 因此，我们现在需要了解的不仅仅是机制
by which these cells execute their movements
[AI] 这些细胞通过它来执行它们的运动
and gene expression and so on.
[AI] 基因表达等。
but we really have to understand the information flow:
[AI] 但我们确实必须了解信息流：
How do these cells cooperate with each other
[AI] 这些细胞如何相互合作
to build something large and to stop building
[AI] 建造大型建筑并停止建造
when that specific structure is created?
[AI] 该特定结构何时创建？
And these kinds of computations. not just the mechanisms.
[AI] 还有这些计算。不仅仅是机制。
but the computations of anatomical control.
[AI] 但是解剖控制的计算。
are the future of biology.
[AI] 是生物学的未来。
CA: And so I guess the traditional model
[AI] CA:所以我猜是传统模式
is that somehow cells are sending biochemical signals to each other
[AI] 就是细胞之间互相传递生化信号
that allow that development to happen the smart way.
[AI] 这使得这种发展能够以明智的方式发生。
But you think there is something else at work.
[AI] 但你认为还有其他原因在起作用。
What is that?
[AI] 那是什么？
ML: Well. cells certainly do communicate biochemically and via physical forces.
[AI] 迈克尔：嗯。细胞确实通过生物化学和物理力进行交流。
but there's something else going on that's extremely interesting.
[AI] 但还有一些事情非常有趣。
and it's basically called bioelectricity.
[AI] 它基本上被称为生物电。
non-neural bioelectricity.
[AI] 非神经生物电。
So it turns out that all cells --
[AI] 所以所有的细胞--
not just nerves. but all cells in your body --
[AI] 不仅仅是紧张。但是你体内的所有细胞--
communicate with each other using electrical signals.
[AI] 使用电信号相互通信。
And what you're seeing here is a time-lapse video.
[AI] 你在这里看到的是一段延时视频。
For the first time.
[AI] 这是第一次。
we are now able to eavesdrop on all of the electrical conversations
[AI] 我们现在可以窃听所有的电子对话
that the cells are having with each other.
[AI] 细胞之间相互拥有的。
So think about this.
[AI] 所以想想这个。
We're now watching --
[AI] 我们现在在看--
This is an early frog embryo.
[AI] 这是一个早期的青蛙胚胎。
This is about eight hours to 10 hours of development.
[AI] 这大约需要8到10个小时的开发时间。
And the colors are showing you actual electrical states
[AI] 颜色显示的是实际的电气状态
that allow you to see all of the electrical software
[AI] 这样您就可以看到所有的电气软件
that's running on the genome-defined cellular hardware.
[AI] 在基因组定义的细胞硬件上运行。
And so these cells are basically communicating with each other
[AI] 所以这些细胞基本上是相互交流的
who is going to be head. who is going to be tail.
[AI] 谁来当校长。谁来当尾巴。
who is going to be left and right and make eyes and brain and so on.
[AI] 谁将是左右的，制造眼睛和大脑等等。
And so it is this software
[AI] 这就是这个软件
that allows these living systems to achieve specific goals.
[AI] 这使得这些生命系统能够实现特定的目标。
goals such as building an embryo
[AI] 建立胚胎等目标
or regenerating a limb for animals that do this.
[AI] 或者为这样做的动物再生肢体。
and the ability to see these electrical conversations
[AI] 以及看到这些电子对话的能力
gives us some really remarkable opportunities
[AI] 给我们提供了一些非常好的机会
to target or to rewrite the goals towards which
[AI] 确定目标或重写目标
these living systems are operating.
[AI] 这些生命系统正在运行。
CA: OK. so this is pretty radical.
[AI] CA:好的。所以这是相当激进的。
Let me see if I understand this.
[AI] 让我看看我是否理解这一点。
What you're saying is that when an organism starts to develop.
[AI] 你的意思是当一个有机体开始发育时。
as soon as a cell divides.
[AI] 一旦细胞分裂。
electrical signals are shared between them.
[AI] 它们之间共享电信号。
But as you get to. what. a hundred. a few hundred cells.
[AI] 但当你到达目的地时。什么一百。几百个细胞。
that somehow these signals end up forming essentially like a computer program.
[AI] 不知何故，这些信号最终形成了一个计算机程序。
a program that somehow includes all the information needed
[AI] 以某种方式包含所有所需信息的程序
to tell that organism
[AI] 告诉那个有机体
what its destiny is?
[AI] 它的命运是什么？
Is that the right way to think about it?
[AI] 这样想对吗？
ML: Yes. quite.
[AI] ML:是的。相当地
Basically. what happens is that these cells.
[AI] 大体上发生的是这些细胞。
by forming electrical networks much like networks in the brain.
[AI] 通过形成类似于大脑网络的电子网络。
they form electrical networks.
[AI] 它们形成电气网络。
and these networks process information including pattern memories.
[AI] 这些网络处理包括模式记忆在内的信息。
They include representation of large-scale anatomical structures
[AI] 它们包括大型解剖结构的表示
where various organs will go.
[AI] 各种器官的去向。
what the different axes of the animal -- front and back. head and tail --
[AI] 什么是动物的不同轴线——正面和背面。从头到尾--
are going to be.
[AI] 我们会很高兴的。
and these are literally held in the electrical circuits
[AI] 这些都被保存在电路中
across large tissues
[AI] 穿过大组织
in the same way that brains hold other kinds of memories and learning.
[AI] 就像大脑拥有其他种类的记忆和学习一样。
CA: So is this the right way to think about it?
[AI] CA：那么这是正确的思考方式吗？
Because this seems to be such a big shift.
[AI] 因为这似乎是一个很大的转变。
I mean. when I first got a computer.
[AI] 我是说。当我第一次得到一台电脑的时候。
I was in awe of the people who could do so-called "machine code."
[AI] 我对那些能做所谓“机器代码”的人感到敬畏
like the direct programming of individual bits in the computer.
[AI] 就像计算机中单个位的直接编程一样。
That was impossible for most mortals.
[AI] 这对大多数凡人来说是不可能的。
To have a chance of controlling that computer.
[AI] 有机会控制那台电脑。
you'd have to program in a language.
[AI] 你必须用一种语言编程。
which was a vastly simpler way of making big-picture things happen.
[AI] 这是一个非常简单的方法，使大画面的事情发生。
And if I understand you right.
[AI] 如果我没弄错的话。
what you're saying is that most of biology today has sort of taken place
[AI] 你的意思是今天大部分的生物学都发生过
trying to do the equivalent of machine code programming.
[AI] 尝试做与机器代码编程等效的工作。
of understanding the biochemical signals between individual cells.
[AI] 理解单个细胞之间的生化信号的过程。
when. wait a sec. holy crap. there's this language going on.
[AI] 什么时候等一下。天哪。这是一种语言。
this electrical language. which. if you could understand that.
[AI] 这是电子语言。哪一个如果你能理解的话。
that would give us a completely different set of insights
[AI] 这将给我们一套完全不同的见解
into how organisms are developing.
[AI] 生物是如何发展的。
Is that metaphor basically right?
[AI] 这个比喻基本上正确吗？
ML: Yeah. this is exactly right.
[AI] 是的。这是完全正确的。
So if you think about the way programming was done in the '40s.
[AI] 如果你想想40年代的编程方式。
in order to get your computer to do something different.
[AI] 为了让你的电脑做一些不同的事情。
you would physically have to shift the wires around.
[AI] 你必须在身体上移动电线。
So you'd have to go in there and rewire the hardware.
[AI] 所以你必须进去重新连接硬件。
You'd have to interact with the hardware directly.
[AI] 您必须直接与硬件交互。
and all of your strategies for manipulating that machine
[AI] 还有你操纵那台机器的所有策略
would be at the level of the hardware.
[AI] 将处于硬件级别。
And the reason we have this now amazing technology revolution.
[AI] 这就是为什么我们现在有了这场惊人的技术革命。
information sciences and so on.
[AI] 信息科学等等。
is because computer science moved from a focus on the hardware
[AI] 这是因为计算机科学不再关注硬件
on to understanding that if your hardware is good enough --
[AI] 了解到如果你的硬件足够好--
and I'm going to tell you that biological hardware is absolutely good enough --
[AI] 我要告诉你们，生物硬件绝对足够好--
then you can interact with your system not by tweaking or rewiring the hardware.
[AI] 然后，您可以与您的系统交互，而不是通过调整或重新布线硬件。
but actually. you can take a step back and give it stimuli or inputs
[AI] 但事实上。你可以后退一步，给它刺激或输入
the way that you would give to a reprogrammable computer
[AI] 就像你给一台可重新编程的计算机一样
and cause the cellular network to do something completely different
[AI] 让蜂窝网络做一些完全不同的事情
than it would otherwise have done.
[AI] 而不是它本来会做的。
So the ability to see these bioelectrical signals
[AI] 所以能够看到这些生物电信号
is giving us an entry point directly into the software
[AI] 给了我们一个直接进入软件的入口
that guides large-scale anatomy.
[AI] 这指导了大规模的解剖学研究。
which is a very different approach to medicine
[AI] 这是一种非常不同的医学方法
than to rewiring specific pathways inside of every cell.
[AI] 而不是重新连接每个细胞内的特定通路。
CA: And so in many ways. this is the amazingness of your work
[AI] CA:在很多方面也是如此。这就是你工作的惊人之处
is that you're starting to crack the code of these electrical signals.
[AI] 就是你开始破解这些电信号的密码。
and you've got an amazing demonstration of this
[AI] 你有一个惊人的演示
in these flatworms.
[AI] 在这些扁形虫身上。
Tell us what's going on here.
[AI] 告诉我们这里发生了什么。
ML: So this is a creature known as a planarian.
[AI] 这是一种被称为涡虫的生物。
They're flatworms.
[AI] 他们是扁虫。
They're actually quite a complex creature.
[AI] 它们实际上是一种非常复杂的生物。
They have a true brain. lots of different organs and so on.
[AI] 他们有真正的大脑。很多不同的器官等等。
And the amazing thing about these planaria
[AI] 还有这些涡虫的神奇之处
is that they are highly. highly regenerative.
[AI] 这是因为他们高度重视。高度再生。
So if you cut it into pieces -- in fact. over 200 pieces --
[AI] 所以如果你把它切成碎片——事实上。200多件--
every piece will rebuild exactly what's needed
[AI] 每一件作品都将完全按照需要进行重建
to make a perfect little worm.
[AI] 做一个完美的小虫子。
So think about that.
[AI] 想想看。
This is a system where every single piece
[AI] 这是一个系统，每一块
knows exactly what a correct planarian looks like
[AI] 确切地知道正确的涡虫是什么样子的
and builds the right organs in the right places and then stops.
[AI] 在正确的地方建立正确的器官，然后停止。
And that's one of the most amazing things about regeneration.
[AI] 这是关于再生最令人惊奇的事情之一。
So what we discovered is that if you cut it into three pieces
[AI] 我们发现如果你把它切成三块
and amputate the head and the tail and you just take this middle fragment.
[AI] 然后切除头部和尾部，你只需要取中间的碎片。
which is what you see here.
[AI] 这就是你在这里看到的。
amazingly. there is an electrical gradient. head to tail. that's generated
[AI] 令人惊讶。有一个电梯度。从头到尾。这就产生了
that tells the piece where the heads and the tails go
[AI] 这就告诉了这首曲子的开头和结尾
and in fact. how many heads or tails you're supposed to have.
[AI] 事实上。你应该有多少个正面或反面。
So what we learned to do is to manipulate this electrical gradient.
[AI] 所以我们学会的是操纵这个电梯度。
and the important thing is that we don't apply electricity.
[AI] 重要的是我们不用电。
What we do instead was we turned on and off the little transistors --
[AI] 我们所做的是打开和关闭小晶体管--
they're actual ion channel proteins --
[AI] 它们是真正的离子通道蛋白质--
that every cell natively uses to set up this electrical state.
[AI] 每个细胞本机使用它来建立这种电状态。
So now we have ways to turn them on and off.
[AI] 现在我们有办法打开和关闭它们。
and when you do this. one of the things you can do
[AI] 当你这么做的时候。你能做的事情之一
is you can shift that circuit to a state that says no. build two heads.
[AI] 你可以把电路换成一个说不的状态，造两个脑袋。
or in fact. build no heads.
[AI] 或者事实上。不要造脑袋。
And what you're seeing here are real worms that have either two or no heads
[AI] 你在这里看到的是真正的蠕虫，它们要么有两个头，要么没有头
that result from this.
[AI] 这就是结果。
because that electrical map is what the cells are using
[AI] 因为电子地图是细胞使用的
to decide what to do.
[AI] 决定做什么。
And so what you're seeing here are live two-headed worms.
[AI] 所以你在这里看到的是活的双头蠕虫。
And. having generated these. we did a completely crazy experiment.
[AI] 和产生了这些。我们做了一个完全疯狂的实验。
You take one of these two-headed worms. and you chop off both heads.
[AI] 你拿一条双头蠕虫。然后你砍掉两个头。
and you leave just the normal middle fragment.
[AI] 只留下正常的中间碎片。
Now keep in mind. these animals have not been genomically edited.
[AI] 现在记住。这些动物尚未进行基因组编辑。
There's absolutely nothing different about their genomes.
[AI] 他们的基因组完全没有什么不同。
Their genome sequence is completely wild type.
[AI] 他们的基因组序列完全是野生型的。
So you amputate the heads. you've got a nice normal fragment.
[AI] 所以你把脑袋截去了。你有一个很好的普通碎片。
and then you ask: In plain water. what is it going to do?
[AI] 然后你问：在清水中。它将做什么？
And. of course. the standard paradigm would say.
[AI] 和当然标准范式会说。
well. if you've gotten rid of this ectopic extra tissue.
[AI] 好如果你已经去除了异位的多余组织。
the genome is not edited so it should make a perfectly normal worm.
[AI] 基因组没有经过编辑，所以它应该是一种完全正常的蠕虫。
And the amazing thing is that it is not what happens.
[AI] 令人惊奇的是，事情并不是这样发生的。
These worms. when cut again and again. in the future. in plain water.
[AI] 这些虫子。当一次又一次的切割。未来在清水中。
they continue to regenerate as two-headed.
[AI] 它们继续以双头的形式再生。
Think about this.
[AI] 想想这个。
The pattern memory to which these animals will regenerate after damage
[AI] 这些动物在受到伤害后将恢复的记忆模式
has been permanently rewritten.
[AI] 已被永久重写。
And in fact. we can now write it back and send them back to being one-headed
[AI] 事实上。我们现在可以把它写回去，让他们回到一头人的状态
without any genomic editing.
[AI] 没有任何基因组编辑。
So this right here is telling you that the information structure
[AI] 这就告诉你，信息结构
that tells these worms how many heads they're supposed to have
[AI] 告诉这些虫子他们应该有多少头
is not directly in the genome.
[AI] 不是直接在基因组中。
It is in this additional bioelectric layer.
[AI] 它就在这个额外的生物电层中。
Probably many other things are as well.
[AI] 可能还有很多其他的事情。
And we now have the ability to rewrite it.
[AI] 我们现在有能力重写它。
And that. of course. is the key definition of memory.
[AI] 还有那个。当然是记忆的关键定义。
It has to be stable. long-term stable. and it has to be rewritable.
[AI] 它必须是稳定的。长期稳定。而且它必须是可重写的。
And we are now beginning to crack this morphogenetic code
[AI] 我们现在开始破解这个形态发生密码
to ask how is it that these tissues store a map of what to do
[AI] 问这些组织是如何储存一张做什么的地图的
and how we can go in and rewrite that map to new outcomes.
[AI] 以及我们如何进入并改写这张地图，以取得新的成果。
CA: I mean. that seems incredibly compelling evidence
[AI] CA:我是说。这似乎是令人难以置信的令人信服的证据
that DNA is just not controlling the actual final shape
[AI] DNA并不能控制实际的最终形状
of these organisms.
[AI] 这些有机体的一部分。
that there's this whole other thing going on.
[AI] 还有另外一件事。
and. boy. if you could crack that code.
[AI] 和男孩如果你能破解密码。
what else could that lead to.
[AI] 这还能导致什么呢。
By the way. just looking at these ones.
[AI] 顺便说一句看看这些。
What is life like for a two-headed flatworm?
[AI] 双头扁形虫的生活是什么样的？
I mean. it seems like it's kind of a trade-off.
[AI] 我是说。这似乎是一种权衡。
The good news is you have this amazing three-dimensional view of the world.
[AI] 好消息是你有一个惊人的三维世界观。
but the bad news is you have to poop through both of your mouths?
[AI] 但坏消息是你必须用两个嘴巴大便？
ML: So. the worms have these little tubes called pharynxes.
[AI] ML:那么。蠕虫有这些叫做咽的小管。
and the tubes are sort of in the middle of the body.
[AI] 管子在身体的中部。
and they excrete through that.
[AI] 它们就这样排泄。
These animals are perfectly viable.
[AI] 这些动物完全可以生存。
They're completely happy. I think.
[AI] 他们非常高兴。我想。
The problem. however.
[AI] 这个问题。然而
is that the two heads don't cooperate all that well.
[AI] 就是两个头头合作得不太好。
and so they don't really eat very well.
[AI] 所以他们吃得不太好。
But if you manage to feed them by hand.
[AI] 但是如果你设法用手喂它们。
they will go on forever.
[AI] 他们将永远继续下去。
and in fact. you should know these worms are basically immortal.
[AI] 事实上。你应该知道这些蠕虫基本上是不朽的。
So these worms. because they are so highly regenerative.
[AI] 所以这些虫子。因为它们的再生能力非常强。
they have no age limit.
[AI] 他们没有年龄限制。
and they're telling us that if we crack this secret of regeneration.
[AI] 他们告诉我们，如果我们破解了再生的秘密。
which is not only growing new cells but knowing when to stop --
[AI] 这不仅是生长新细胞，而且知道何时停止--
you see. this is absolutely crucial --
[AI] 你看。这是绝对关键的--
if you can continue to exert this really profound control
[AI] 如果你能继续施加这种真正深刻的控制
over the three-dimensional structures that the cells are working towards.
[AI] 在细胞工作的三维结构上。
you could defeat aging as well as traumatic injury
[AI] 你可以战胜衰老和创伤
and things like this.
[AI] 诸如此类的事情。
So one thing to keep in mind is that this ability to rewrite
[AI] 所以要记住的一件事是，这种重写的能力
the large-scale anatomical structure of the body
[AI] 身体的大规模解剖结构
is not just a weird planarian trick.
[AI] 这不仅仅是一个奇怪的滑行技巧。
It's not just something that works in flatworms.
[AI] 这不仅仅是扁虫身上起作用的东西。
What you're seeing here is a tadpole with an eye and a gut.
[AI] 你在这里看到的是一只有眼睛和内脏的蝌蚪。
and what we've done is turned on a very specific ion channel.
[AI] 我们所做的是打开一个非常特殊的离子通道。
So we basically just manipulated these little electrical transistors
[AI] 所以我们基本上只是操纵这些小电晶体
that are inside of cells.
[AI] 在细胞内。
and we've imposed a state on some of these gut cells
[AI] 我们已经在一些肠道细胞上施加了一种状态
that's normally associated with building an eye.
[AI] 这通常与造眼睛有关。
And as a result. what the cells do is they build an eye.
[AI] 结果呢。这些细胞做的是造一只眼睛。
These eyes are complete.
[AI] 这些眼睛是完整的。
They have optic nerve. lens. retina.
[AI] 他们有视神经。透镜视网膜。
all the same stuff that an eye is supposed to have.
[AI] 都是眼睛应该有的东西。
They can see. by the way. out of these eyes.
[AI] 他们能看见。顺便说一句从这些眼睛里。
And what you're seeing here
[AI] 你在这里看到了什么
is that by triggering eye-building subroutines
[AI] 这是通过触发造眼子程序实现的吗
in the physiological software of the body.
[AI] 在身体的生理学软件中。
you can very easily tell it to build a complex organ.
[AI] 你可以很容易地告诉它建立一个复杂的器官。
And this is important for our biomedicine.
[AI] 这对我们的生物医学很重要。
because we don't know how to micromanage the construction of an eye.
[AI] 因为我们不知道如何微观管理眼睛的构造。
I think it's going to be a really long time
[AI] 我认为这将是一个非常长的时间
before we can really bottom-up build things like eyes or hands and so on.
[AI] 然后我们才能真正地自下而上建立像眼睛或手之类的东西。
But we don't need to. because the body already knows how to do it.
[AI] 但我们不需要。因为身体已经知道怎么做了。
and there are these subroutines that can be triggered
[AI] 这些子程序可以被触发
by specific electrical patterns that we can find.
[AI] 通过我们能找到的特定的电模式。
And this is what we call "cracking the bioelectric code."
[AI] 这就是我们所说的“破解生物电码”
We can make eyes. We can make extra limbs.
[AI] 我们可以做眼睛。我们可以做额外的肢体。
Here's one of our five-legged tadpoles.
[AI] 这是我们的一只五条腿蝌蚪。
We can make extra hearts.
[AI] 我们可以做更多的心。
We're starting to crack the code to understand where are the subroutines
[AI] 我们开始破解代码以了解子程序在哪里
in this software
[AI] 在这个软件中
that we can trigger and build these complex organs
[AI] 我们可以触发并建立这些复杂的器官
long before we actually know how to micromanage the process
[AI] 早在我们真正知道如何微观管理流程之前
at the cellular level.
[AI] 在细胞水平。
CA: So as you've started to get to learn this electrical layer
[AI] CA：所以当你开始学习这个电层的时候
and what it can do.
[AI] 以及它能做什么。
you've been able to create --
[AI] 您已经能够创建--
is it fair to say it's almost like a new. a novel life-form.
[AI] 公平地说，它几乎像一个新的。一种新颖的生命形式。
called a xenobot?
[AI] 叫氙机器人？
Talk to me about xenobots.
[AI] 跟我谈谈氙气机器人。
ML: Right.
[AI] ML:对。
So if you think about this. this leads to a really strange prediction.
[AI] 所以如果你仔细想想。这导致了一个非常奇怪的预测。
If the cells are really willing to build towards a specific map.
[AI] 如果细胞真的愿意朝着一个特定的方向构建。
we could take genetically unaltered cells.
[AI] 我们可以利用基因上没有改变的细胞。
and what you're seeing here is cells taken out of a frog body.
[AI] 你在这里看到的是从青蛙身上取下的细胞。
They've coalesced in a way that asks them to re-envision their multicellularity.
[AI] 它们以某种方式结合在一起，要求它们重新设想它们的多细胞性。
And what you see here
[AI] 你在这里看到了什么
is that when liberated from the rest of the body of the animal.
[AI] 就是从动物身体的其他部分解放出来的时候。
they make these tiny little novel bodies that are. in terms of behavior.
[AI] 他们制造了这些微小的、新奇的身体。在行为方面。
you can see they can move. they can run a maze.
[AI] 你可以看到他们可以移动。他们能跑迷宫。
They are completely different from frogs or tadpoles.
[AI] 它们与青蛙或蝌蚪完全不同。
Frog cells. when asked to re-envision what kind of body they want to make.
[AI] 青蛙细胞。当被要求重新设想他们想要做什么样的身体时。
do something incredibly interesting.
[AI] 做一些非常有趣的事情。
They use the hardware that their genetics gives them.
[AI] 他们使用基因赋予他们的硬件。
for example. these little hairs. these little cilia
[AI] 例如这些小头发。这些小纤毛
that are normally used to redistribute mucus on the outside of a frog.
[AI] 通常用于在青蛙的外部重新分配粘液。
those are genetically specified.
[AI] 这些都是基因指定的。
But what these creatures did.
[AI] 但是这些生物做了什么。
because the cells are able to form novel kinds of bodies.
[AI] 因为这些细胞能够形成新的身体。
they have figured out how to use these little cilia
[AI] 他们已经想出了如何使用这些小纤毛
to instead row against the water. and now have locomotion.
[AI] 而是靠着水划船。现在有了运动。
So not only can they move around. but they can. and here what you're seeing.
[AI] 所以他们不仅可以四处走动。但他们可以。这是你看到的。
is that these cells are coalescing together.
[AI] 这些细胞正在结合在一起。
Now they're starting to have conversations about what they are going to do.
[AI] 现在他们开始谈论他们将要做什么。
You can see here the flashes are these exchanges of information.
[AI] 你可以看到这里的闪光是这些信息的交流。
Keep in mind. this is just skin.
[AI] 牢记这只是皮肤。
There is no nervous system. There is no brain. This is just skin.
[AI] 没有神经系统。没有大脑。这只是皮肤。
This is skin that has learned to make a new body
[AI] 这是一种皮肤，它学会了塑造一个新的身体
and to explore its environment and move around.
[AI] 探索它的环境，四处走动。
And they have spontaneous behaviors.
[AI] 他们有自发的行为。
You can see here where it's swimming down this maze.
[AI] 你可以在这里看到它在迷宫里游动。
At this point. it decides to turn around and go back where it came from.
[AI] 在这一点上。它决定掉头回去。
So it has its own behavior. and this is a remarkable model system
[AI] 所以它有自己的行为。这是一个了不起的模型系统
for several reasons.
[AI] 有几个原因。
First of all. it shows us the amazing plasticity of cells
[AI] 首先它向我们展示了细胞惊人的可塑性
that are genetically wild type.
[AI] 基因上属于野生型。
There is no genetic editing here.
[AI] 这里没有基因编辑。
These are cells that are really prone to making some sort of functional body.
[AI] 这些细胞很容易形成某种功能性的身体。
The second thing.
[AI] 第二件事。
and this was done in collaboration with Josh Bongard's lab at UVM.
[AI] 这是与Josh Bongard在UVM的实验室合作完成的。
they modeled the structure of these things and evolved it in a virtual world.
[AI] 他们对这些东西的结构进行建模，并在虚拟世界中进行演化。
So this is literally -- on a computer. they modeled it on a computer.
[AI] 这实际上是在计算机上。他们在计算机上模拟了它。
So this is literally the only organism that I know of on the face of this planet
[AI] 这是我所知道的唯一一种在这个星球上的生物
whose evolution took place not in the biosphere of the earth
[AI] 他们的进化不是在地球的生物圈中发生的
but inside a computer.
[AI] 但是在电脑里面。
So the individual cells have an evolutionary history.
[AI] 所以单个细胞有进化史。
but this organism has never existed before.
[AI] 但这种生物以前从未存在过。
It was evolved in this virtual world.
[AI] 它是在这个虚拟世界中进化出来的。
and then we went ahead and made it in the lab.
[AI] 然后我们继续在实验室里做了。
and you can see this amazing plasticity.
[AI] 你可以看到这种惊人的可塑性。
This is not only for making useful machines.
[AI] 这不仅仅是为了制造有用的机器。
You can imagine now programming these to go out into the environment
[AI] 您可以想象，现在对这些进行编程以进入环境
and collect toxins and cleanup.
[AI] 收集毒素并进行清理。
or you could imagine ones made out of human cells
[AI] 或者你可以想象由人类细胞构成的细胞
that would go through your body and collect cancer cells
[AI] 那会通过你的身体收集癌细胞
or reshape arthritic joints.
[AI] 或者重塑关节炎的关节。
deliver pro-regenerative compounds.
[AI] 提供促进再生的化合物。
all kinds of things.
[AI] 各种各样的东西。
But not only these useful applications -- this is an amazing sandbox
[AI] 但不仅仅是这些有用的应用程序--这是一个惊人的沙箱
for learning to communicate morphogenetic signals to cell collectives.
[AI] 用于学习向细胞群体传达形态发生信号。
So once we crack this. once we understand how these cells decide what to do.
[AI] 所以一旦我们破解了这个。一旦我们了解了这些细胞是如何决定做什么的。
and then we're going to. of course. learn to rewrite that information.
[AI] 然后我们要去。当然学会重写这些信息。
the next steps are great improvements in regenerative medicine.
[AI] 下一步是再生医学的重大改进。
because we will then be able to tell cells to build healthy organs.
[AI] 因为我们将能够告诉细胞建立健康的器官。
And so this is now a really critical opportunity
[AI] 因此，这是一个非常关键的机会
to learn to communicate with cell groups.
[AI] 学会与细胞群沟通。
not to micromanage them. not to force the hardware.
[AI] 而不是对他们进行微观管理。不要强迫硬件。
to communicate and rewrite the goals that these cells are trying to accomplish.
[AI] 沟通和重写这些细胞试图实现的目标。
CA: Well. it's mind-boggling stuff.
[AI] CA:嗯。这是令人难以置信的东西。
Finally. Mike. give us just one other story
[AI] 最后迈克。再给我们讲一个故事
about medicine that might be to come
[AI] 关于可能会出现的药物
as you develop this understanding
[AI] 当你发展这种理解时
of how this bioelectric layer works.
[AI] 这个生物电层是如何工作的。
ML: Yeah. this is incredibly exciting because. if you think about it.
[AI] 是的。这是令人难以置信的兴奋，因为。如果你仔细想想。
most of the problems of biomedicine --
[AI] 生物医学的大部分问题--
birth defects. degenerative disease. aging. traumatic injury. even cancer --
[AI] 出生缺陷。退化性疾病。变老外伤。甚至癌症--
all boil down to one thing:
[AI] 所有这些归结为一件事：
cells are not building what you would like them to build.
[AI] 细胞并没有建立你想要他们建立的东西。
And so if we understood how to communicate with these collectives
[AI] 如果我们了解如何与这些集体沟通
and really rewrite their target morphologies.
[AI] 并真正改写他们的目标形态。
we would be able to normalize tumors.
[AI] 我们可以使肿瘤正常化。
we would be able to repair birth defects.
[AI] 我们将能够修复出生缺陷。
induce regeneration of limbs and other organs.
[AI] 诱导肢体和其他器官再生。
and these are things we have already done in frog models.
[AI] 这些都是我们在青蛙模型中已经做过的。
And so now the next really exciting step
[AI] 现在是下一个非常激动人心的步骤
is to take this into mammalian cells
[AI] 就是把它带进哺乳动物细胞
and to really turn this into the next generation of regenerative medicine
[AI] 真正把它变成下一代再生医学
where we learn to address all of these biomedical needs
[AI] 我们在那里学习如何满足所有这些生物医学需求
by communicating with the cell collectives
[AI] 通过与细胞集体的沟通
and rewriting their bioelectric pattern memories.
[AI] 重写他们的生物电模式记忆。
And the final thing I'd like to say is that the importance of this field
[AI] 最后我想说的是，这个领域的重要性
is not only for biomedicine.
[AI] 不仅仅是为了生物医学。
You see. this. as I started out by saying.
[AI] 你看。这正如我一开始所说。
this ability of cells in novel environments
[AI] 细胞在新环境中的这种能力
to build all kinds of things besides what their genome tells them
[AI] 除了他们的基因组告诉他们的以外，还要建造各种各样的东西
is an example of intelligence.
[AI] 是智力的一个例子。
and biology has been intelligently solving problems
[AI] 生物学一直在智能地解决问题
long before brains came on the scene.
[AI] 早在大脑出现之前。
And so this is also the beginnings of a new inspiration for machine learning
[AI] 这也是机器学习新灵感的开始
that mimics the artificial intelligence of body cells. not just brains.
[AI] 它模仿人体细胞的人工智能。不仅仅是大脑。
for applications in computer intelligence.
[AI] 用于计算机智能应用。
CA: Mike Levin. thank you for your extraordinary work
[AI] CA:迈克·莱文。谢谢你出色的工作
and for sharing it so compellingly with us.
[AI] 和我们一起分享它。
Thank you.
[AI] 非常感谢。
ML: Thank you so much. Thank you. Chris.
[AI] 非常感谢你。非常感谢。克里斯。